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| When? |
| Conception |
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38% |
[ 5 ] |
| Implantation |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Heart begins to beat |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Brain activity |
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30% |
[ 4 ] |
| After 1st Trimester |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| After 2nd Trimester |
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7% |
[ 1 ] |
| After Birth |
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23% |
[ 3 ] |
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| Total Votes : 13 |
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Tripod
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| wtf wrote: |
Recluse, I find the statistics very uncomfortable aswell. Particularly, the breakdown of reasons for getting an abortion. Personally I think the underlying problem is society's attitude toward sex these days. Sex is viewed as a fun, cheap thing to do when there is nothing good on TV. Sexual promiscuity is a measure of status, especially for boys. Children are sexualized way too young, especially girls. Very little is made of the emotional aspect of sex.
I'm not adovacting no-sex-before marriage. I just think it should be encouraging children to wait until they are adults in a loving relationship when they can make responsible decisions about contraceptive and informed decisions about abortion should they need to. We certainly shouldn't be dressing them up as mini prostitutes whilst bombarding them with the message sex = success. Recluse I would love to see the breakdown of age groups getting abortions. |
I dont have anything to add...i just want to say well said.  |
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Recluse
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52% of women obtaining abortions in the U.S. are younger than 25: Women aged 20-24 obtain 32% of all abortions; Teenagers obtain 20% and girls under 15 account for 1.2%. And: 64.4% of all abortions are performed on never-married women.
YBM: Your outlook summed up best is: They made a mistake, lets help them out, wehy should their lives be screwed. This is a good outlook, but in your own words, flawed. This world would not be what it was if everyone that made a life altering mistake was "helped out" Think of all the other people in this world who make decisions that alter their lives for the worse, or alter OTHERS lives (this is what you're doing after all, altering someone else's life too) for the worse, and how often does the world look at them and say "Eh, it's ok, we'll help you out." No. If kids are going to be doing adult things, they need to deal with the adult consequences. If they are adults, they should know better. What your argument does, along with those who argue with you, is to give these people a free pass. Sorry but no. And again, check out the stats. If your 16 year old can't take having a kid, then give it to someone who can. Better yet, lets look at your other 2 examples. Alcohol syndrome and abuse. What your basically saying is that kids, who shouldn't be acting like adults, and adults who should be more responsible, are allowed to act like adults, but still only deal with kiddy consequences. It's all a big circle. Instead of giving them a pass to kill a life, why not make them behave, and stop the cycle before it starts.
Daiky: tbh, if I had my way, yes, all abortions would be banned. I can't though, so I will fight for as strict an option as possible, and usually that means allowing for the abortion option in extreme cases where the mother truly is at risk. It's not discrimination, it's plain old facts. 5-6% "possibly" having problems (which, btw, 50% of these have to do with the child. I.E. "Lets kill the child before it 'might' die" Hows that for logic, hurrah) is far different then 94-95% being perfectly healthy. Hows there discrimination here? You would have to make a case that an individual who has had a perfectly healthy child, and goes home in a perfectly health state, will surely die due to having that child in their life, before you can say it is discrimination. Good Luck. Regarding IVF, I don't believe it should be done. If people cannot conceive a child through the natural way they were given, then imo that is the life they have been given, and for them there is adoption. My sister can not have children. She accepted that as what she was given in life, and has now adopted 2 lovely little girls. They were not wanted by their mothers, but were given a chance at life, and my sister was given a chance to have kids. It's a win win all around. |
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Daiky
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So when is mom truly at risk? When she dies, or when she risks becoming paralyzed? Should she have her own life ruined so she can have a healthy child? And if not, then what exactly would be the definition of a 'ruined life'?
You keep getting questions this way, hence my opinion that it's ok as long as the child it can't live on its own yet. Once it can, surely it deserve a shot at life.
Adoption isn't as easy as men think it is, hence not many women choose that road. Not to mention all the things that can go wrong there too. |
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YBM
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YBM: Think of all the other people in this world who make decisions that alter their lives for the worse, or alter OTHERS lives (this is what you're doing after all, altering someone else's life too) for the worse, and how often does the world look at them and say "Eh, it's ok, we'll help you out." No. If kids are going to be doing adult things, they need to deal with the adult consequences. If they are adults, they should know better. What your argument does, along with those who argue with you, is to give these people a free pass. Sorry but no. And again, check out the stats.
...
What your basically saying is that kids, who shouldn't be acting like adults, and adults who should be more responsible, are allowed to act like adults, but still only deal with kiddy consequences. It's all a big circle. Instead of giving them a pass to kill a life, why not make them behave, and stop the cycle before it starts.
[/quote]
First of all, let me say that it obviously could all have been avoided if these young girls and boys were just adult enough to deal with the consequenses in a good manner. BUT, this is OBVIOUSLY not the case. Of course, something should be done about this. Yes, you are right in saying early sexuality et cetera contributes to this, as WTF also said.
BUT, even if I do agree on that, I do not agree on the fact that abortion should be unlawful.
In reaction to the above: my whole point is that you are _not_ altering a life of a child for the worse, you are altering it. But, you are relieving it of the effect of being mocked for its wide eyes and IQ of 60 due to its mother being severely drunk in conception. You are saving it from a family with a single parent. You are saving it from obesity from malnutrition. Abortion is the _right_ choice in most cases, as it is not ethically bearable to let a child live in those abominable circumstances. |
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Recluse
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Daiky: I didn't draw the line at ruined life, I drew it at death. If you can honestly say that killing the child will save the mothers life, thats the MOST I will allow, but again, I said my preference would be to not have abortions.
YBM: Kindly re-read my statistics. A lot of work has been put in to those. Retardation and/or alcohol issues are not part of the 94-95% of abortions done for "social reasons" And I find it somewhat deplorable to think that you are advocating death to save a child from "possible" abuse and "possible" neglect, especially considering how much of that "possible" won't come to be. |
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Daiky
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| So it's ok for a baby to have a mom who can't look after it? That's kinda harsh. |
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YBM
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| Quote: |
| Kindly re-read my statistics. A lot of work has been put in to those. Retardation and/or alcohol issues are not part of the 94-95% of abortions done for "social reasons" And I find it somewhat deplorable to think that you are advocating death to save a child from "possible" abuse and "possible" neglect, especially considering how much of that "possible" won't come to be. |
Oh for fuck sake... I NEVER SAID THE BABIES THAT WERE ABORTED HAD FOETAL ALCHOHOL SYNDROME. Try reading for a change -_-. Your statistics are fine, I have no need for them as they say nothing new.
Look at the correlational statistics between children of young mothers, fatherless children, children whose mothers have smoked/drank/did drugs during conception. If know those, and still say the children are better off alive then you're a masochist. You don't know how much of the 'possible' maltreatment comes to be apparantly.
If you have the choice of letting either 3 people come into the world of which 2 will be happy and 1 will have a miserable life with all sorts of psychosocial problems, or, to not let any of these three come into the world, with no ill side effects at all. I have no clue why you would hurt this one child out of three so badly, why you're so motivated to advocate 'pro-life' as the americans call it. You make life for a lot of children a living hell, and you make life harder for their parents. I have no clue why people think that's what their god wants.
I know perfectly well what abortion is and its prevalence in young mothers. I have no doubt you won't read this post either, like you did not read my other two, but I sincerely hope you don't try to 'motivate' any of the young mothers you know to get a child they don't want. |
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Recluse
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Funny, you say "why people think thats what their god wants" like it's what WE'RE doing thats causing this. I guess God wouldn't want us to destroy a families life by putting their father in jail after he committed a crime, right? ffs, you sit there and say that WE, the guys trying to save life, are ruining life, even though they're the ones that went and got pregnant, they took the action that caused the consequence, and they made a decision which they need to deal with.
You're making the decision to kill the whole, due to possibilities with a minority. In that case the human race should be eradicated, due to the suffering of some. I think your post can be summed up best with... "With no ill side effects" To you, this is the value of life, and your definition of death. And you say there is something wrong with me for just giving them a chance? Wow.
Daiky: If she can't look after it, there are plenty who are willing to take her place. And if it's so hard for her do adopt the child out, I ask, how is it so easy to kill it off first? Give the kid a chance, I mean ffs, his mother had one, and she seems to be using it just fine. |
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YBM
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You continue to batter on the 'consequences of their actions' for them to beir. You still don't see my point, it's not those who acted that bear the consequences, it's the -Children- who bear them.
And FYI, I did not make the decision to kill the whole, only the part who have a terrible high percentage of getting a crappy life.
I hope by putting this in a tiny post it will get through this time. |
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Daiky
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| Recluse wrote: |
Funny, you say "why people think thats what their god wants" like it's what WE'RE doing thats causing this. I guess God wouldn't want us to destroy a families life by putting their father in jail after he committed a crime, right? ffs, you sit there and say that WE, the guys trying to save life, are ruining life, even though they're the ones that went and got pregnant, they took the action that caused the consequence, and they made a decision which they need to deal with.
You're making the decision to kill the whole, due to possibilities with a minority. In that case the human race should be eradicated, due to the suffering of some. I think your post can be summed up best with... "With no ill side effects" To you, this is the value of life, and your definition of death. And you say there is something wrong with me for just giving them a chance? Wow.
Daiky: If she can't look after it, there are plenty who are willing to take her place. And if it's so hard for her do adopt the child out, I ask, how is it so easy to kill it off first? Give the kid a chance, I mean ffs, his mother had one, and she seems to be using it just fine. |
God did let some people invent abortion, so it's around for a reason, if you believe in that. That part has nothing to do with free will.
As I said, abortion isn't that simple. I can well imagine some women would rather kill their child than not knowing what kind of situation it'll end up in. It's your flesh and blood after all. Plus, this'd be a situation where she wants the child, not to get one for someone else to take care of. |
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tnilc
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| Quote: |
You continue to batter on the 'consequences of their actions' for them to beir. You still don't see my point, it's not those who acted that bear the consequences, it's the -Children- who bear them.
And FYI, I did not make the decision to kill the whole, only the part who have a terrible high percentage of getting a crappy life.
I hope by putting this in a tiny post it will get through this time
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Well im new to the forums but im diggin the serious discussions so im just gonna take part. Any to respond to the quote by YBM i would like to point out that not a person alive lives a life without suffering. And its true that some suffer unfairly. examples of this abound, the person hit by a druck driver, victims of robbery rape, the list continues almost indefinately. Should they rather have not lived so that they avoided the bad times? to me this seems fatalistic. While my life my not be EVERYTHING i would like for it to be, and i have had bad experience, i think that living is still worth the trouble, even if its just to die and cease to be. Just some thoughts |
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dimeadozen
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| AHH! These discussions seriously go nowhere. But they are entertaining. |
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Daiky
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| That's because everyone has their own opinion, thank God :p |
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